#125, Scott Chabina, Founder of Chabina Energy Partners
Scott Chabina is the Founder of Chabina Energy Partners. Having successfully advised numerous clients across a wide range of complex circumstances, Scott is in a unique position in the renewable fuels and related decarbonization industries. He is fully qualified to partner with a wide range of clients such as management teams, investors, lenders, and others to provide strategic advisory services well ahead of any immediate transaction or capital markets opportunity. Scott’s extensive experience advising different types of capital providers and project participants gives him the ability to understand their respective concerns and build consensus in difficult situations.
Host Raj Daniels 02:10
If you were asked to share something interesting about yourself, what would it be?
Scott Chabina 02:16
The most interesting thing about me I would say both personally and professionally is I’m passionate about the renewable fuels and decarbonization sector. In fact, so passionate that I’ve launched Chabina Energy Partners earlier this year to provide strategic advisory services to those types of clients. I’m not aware of any other dedicated strategic advisory services that are exclusive to the renewable fuels and decarbonization sectors and look forward to chatting with you a little bit about that today.
Host Raj Daniels 02:52
So before we get to Chabina Energy Partners, you mentioned interest passionate about renewable fuels. Where does that come from?
Scott Chabina 03:04
I didn’t stumble into renewable fuels the way many others have, from a growth perspective. I’d spent the origins of my career as a generalist, so I started out working across different industries and across the capital structure, so 20 plus different industries, and do an M&A capital raising restructuring work. I didn’t get into renewable fuels candidly, till 2008. That was really when I was fortunate to find my way into the sector, with a little case called VeraSun Energy, which at the time, was the largest ethanol company in the world and a real tumultuous bankruptcy filing in the commodity crash. And it was through advising, effectively the Farm Credit system, a syndicate of banks, through seven of the 16 ethanol plants, that I realized, there’s a lot more to this, and it’s going to be facing a number of producers in the sector. It allowed me to really develop the first-hand perspective as one of the starting squares of the industry and one of the starting squares for both the Renewable Fuel Standard and the Low Carbon Fuel Standard in California to come.
So it was fortunate to come in that way. I happen to be quite passionate and curious about renewable energy, renewable fuels at the time. Being a generalist, this was one of the first times that it really happened to pair up my personal enthusiasm with my professional capacity. And we were lucky because, with the support of my colleagues, it led to about 35, 40 different transactions in just ethanol alone, about four and a half billion gallons of total production capacity and at this point. It worked out really well. And you know, even more compelling was that these engagements were across the entire capital structure. So, you know, senior lenders in the Farm Credit system, of course, but producers, unsecured creditors private equity in a variety of complex circumstances. So distress restructuring, refinancing M&A, that wouldn’t happen ordinarily in such a compressed time period. But ethanol has a, a variety of unique circumstances to it.
We quickly realized that I built a vertical at an investment bank that expressively is generalist, so they don’t have industry verticals. I wanted to do more of what I was really passionate about and went looking for another renewable energy investment bank where I could complement their distribution network where I could bring my renewable fuels expertise to help them launch and expand renewable fuels group and joined up with Marathon Capital about three years ago, maybe three and a half years ago, April of 2017. And, you know, we had great success, continue to have success with RNG, renewable natural gas, renewable diesel, renewable jet fuel, even continue to do some ethanol work.
It was a fantastic run. I personally felt that at that point, I’ve been an investment banker for over 16 years, I felt there was an incredible opportunity set, if you will, for these rapidly developing high-value high impact sectors that it was going overlooked by, you know, any traditional investment banking structure just in the form of it wasn’t an immediate transaction opportunity, right? It really took the form of a strategic consulting or strategic advisory type of format, where I can lend my direct expertise, first-hand transaction expertise in these very niche markets, these very dynamic emerging markets, ahead of what will consider an immediate transaction opportunity where there are other investment bankers qualified to do the traditional toolset. So it was kind of a risk, of course, to launch a business. But you know, there, I’ll put it this way, I felt strongly that the perspective could add real value would add real value to an ever-increasing value chain.
What I mean is utilities, private equity, infrastructure, debt, capital providers, obligated parties, voluntary parties, increasingly, that is all they’re all seeking to determine their respective entry point into this low carbon economy. And, you know, that lead to Chabina Energy Partners. We’re extremely passionate subject matter experts regarding renewable fuels and decarbonization across transportation, manufacturing and energy.
And in a way, this is really just a natural extension of my existing core competencies, my relationships and my perspective into this lower-carbon economy. To give you a snapshot right now, advising clients across again, the capital structure in the value chain and carbon capture utilization and sequestration projects, many of which are requiring 45Q tax equity, financing, renewable natural gas, both anaerobic digestion, dairy, and landfill gas, RNG renewable diesel and ways to value verticals. So we seek to really work with clients ahead of that obvious transaction opportunity. These markets, again, are extremely dynamic, even within renewable fuels. And there’s a ton of opportunity for parties to get involved that is not immediately apparent for all eyes in my opinion.
Host Raj Daniels 08:57
So take us back to that moment. 2008, you had this opportunity to get involved with ethanol at the time. Did you have an aha moment? Because we were moving directly into the financial crisis during that time. Was that an aha moment for you where you saw this as the future? Or was it just part of a regular project?
Scott Chabina 09:19
Upon the immediate few flights out to Sioux Falls, South Dakota and minus 35 degrees, I will concede, did not appear that I had any aha moments that were productive. And it wasn’t until I really got the lay of the land and understood the tailwinds and the headwinds that, you know, it made sense that’s what was going on.
It made sense to the strategy we were advising our client on and their investment horizon their role in this value chain and particularly what the sector was at the time. It was an issue that needed to be resolved. It was a debt capital issue that needed to in the simplest form that needed to be resolved and in bankruptcy court and I view the bankruptcy court as another lever to effectuate a transaction. And that’s owing to my restructuring background, of course. But without it, I would not have gotten into that sector, I would not have gotten into the Farm Credit sector, certainly, and I owe much of my background and expertise to those types of relationships.
Host Raj Daniels 10:32
So just for the benefit of the audience, can you define what a debt capital issue is, and then after that, obligated versus volunteer parties?
Scott Chabina 10:44
When I refer to VeraSun, I’m oversimplifying a complex bankruptcy. But when I say debt capital issue, they had found themselves in the commodity crash when corn was rising to an all-time high every other hour, locking in contracts at then below-market prices, only to have the market fall. So they were buying corn effectively at prices higher than the market and that contracts, owing more than they were able to pay effectively. Once the loans and their creditworthiness started to erode, their liquidity dried up, and they found themselves very quickly in bankruptcy. So that’s not by a debt capital issue. In terms of voluntary parties, regulated parties, and obligated parties, the obligated parties capital O and capital P, I refer to them as parties under the Renewable Fuel Standard, the RFS, the federal program, in terms of regulated parties, I use that to refer to the same parties within the low carbon fuel standard, the state-level program in California.
Host Raj Daniels 11:57
You mentioned the low carbon economy earlier. You’ve been on this ride now for let’s call it 12 years, you’ve had your hands in it. What do you see from a holistic perspective over the next 10–15 years playing out? And are there any specific areas? I think you mentioned carbon capture earlier, but any specific areas that you’re looking at harder than others?
Scott Chabina 12:23
I think carbon capture 100% is a significant focus of mine, I believe that it’ll need to be a much larger deployment of those types of projects, across industry segments across the globe to have the impact that we need to have full stop. So I think that train has long left the station and I’m excited to play what minimal role I can and it’s in its progress.
But for the purpose of addressing your question as to the value chain, the expanding low carbon economy, I want to use if I may RNG, renewable natural gas as an example because it’s a perfect candidate for the metaphor or the analogy. I started in this space, explaining the value proposition of low carbon fuels, whether it be an RFS value proposition, or LCFS proposition or, or both to explaining that value proposition to two different types of capital providers. And I’ve been doing that for many, many years. And it’s incredibly exciting to be having conversations with those same types of parties around extremely low carbon fuels, like renewable natural gas, which can have CI in the dairy side, minus 250 minus 300, from a carbon intensity score. And these incredibly low carbon fuels, I’m watching these parties that not only say we’re skeptical, that’s the wrong impression, but we’re less aggressive, more reluctant.
I suppose there’s a great example of a lot of people want to be first to be second. And we watched that happen. And now the value chain for RNG, after a few transactions have been proven out after projects are pumping real RNG into pipelines and monetizing in California and expanding and they’re really making an impact. You’re seeing different types of larger parties come in.
What I mean to say is major obligated parties, major regulated parties, you’re seeing utilities play an increasing role. You’re seeing voluntary parties and corporates look at how can I basically take my existing natural gas usage and decarbonize it? How can I make RNG work for me? What’s my strategic entry point into this low carbon economy? That’s pretty compelling. I have seen and heard of many of the headlines before. I’ve seen my own limited popularity wax and wane as a renewable fuels investment banker over the years. I’m happy to say I feel there’s a good tailwind now.
But aside from that limited encouragement, I’ll tell you, there’s real capital behind it now. And I’m not doing much of the convincing anymore. It’s more about framing the risk profile and balancing the right tolerance to spot exposure. It’s about aligning interests, it’s about valorizing the right projects. So you know, there’s a that’s a big shift from, you know, my perspective. It’s interesting to watch a lot of these projects, the carbon capture projects, it will be interesting to watch how the 45Q program continues to prove itself out and how that will, you know, apply carbon capture projects across the industry as well, once it brings in the tax equity financing component. So there’s a lot to be excited about.
Host Raj Daniels 16:11
Well, you mentioned tailwinds, and obviously, you’re optimistic about the future. What are some of the challenges that these parties will face?
Scott Chabina 16:31
As always, renewable fuels face a significant amount of regulatory uncertainty broadly. However, you can’t take all regulatory uncertainty and bundle it right. You can’t bundle that risk from an underwriting perspective. So what generally the market has done is bifurcate LCFS state-level risk from federal level risk RFS risk, and you’ve seen that not only in the types of projects that are developing and where they’re deriving most of their value or revenue. But you’re seeing that in the investor appetite, right, I think what would be extremely positive for this sector and the direction in which lower-carbon fuels are headed.
Where I really see a lot of help coming would be if there were longer-term regulatory certainty around the RFS, which we know as reset periods, which we know has consistently delayed renewable volume obligations, which, you know, if we had more clarity there, that would be very helpful. Additionally, if there were, let’s just put it a more clear expansion of state-level LCFS plans, I think that would be very well received as well, there’s been a lot of discussions, but it remains sort of fragmented and remains somewhat uncertain.
Host Raj Daniels 18:26
So where do you think lower-carbon fuels are headed?
Scott Chabina 18:30
I think it’s a race to the floor. But you know, we’re talking minus 300 CI fuels and lower. So you tell me where the floor is. But it’s not one mousetrap for all fuels. And this is a good segue to what’s happening right now in conventional ethanol. Corn-based starch-based ethanol in this country, there’s really a need for a point of differentiation.
What do I mean by that? If you don’t have some unique capacity, assuming you had some major cost advantage, which you really don’t and maturing commodity business, if you had some unique capacity, some point of differentiation such as that, you know, Pacific ethanol, for instance, going to specialty grade alcohols, GPRE focusing on higher protein feed, White Energy focusing on carbon capture and lower carbon fuels. As a result, these are material pivots away from being a, you know, a commodity ethanol accordion ethanol out production facility, and most other ethanol facilities have always risen to the challenge, right? I mean, they’ve gone through a number of waves of restructuring, and what I do fear for that space is without the continued forward-thinking without the support for that there will be a sort of cost optimization of that capacity. Unless you’re betting on corn and ethanol prices, and there’s likely a far easier way than owning an ethanol facility to do so. You must have some business plan as to why the next three years are going to be better than than the last. You’re seeing it reflected in everything from simple capital projects, simple capital X projects, like, you know, corn oil was the first to notice and maybe, I don’t know, two thirds, three-quarters of the plants out there to more complex projects like CCS and high protein. But either way, I think that’s where that space is viewing the highest and best value of its products. I don’t think it’s in a maturing commodity product. I think it’s in the examples I provided.
Host Raj Daniels 21:07
So let’s dial back to Chabina Energy Partners. You mentioned you launched this year, congratulations, middle of COVID, though, but what kind of parties would seek out your advisory services?
Scott Chabina 21:23
We did launch in the middle of COVID. It’s a real-time example, we’re all really living the movie, as we write it in many ways. But one particular example is we were tested from a specific project, but it applies to anyone with a low carbon value proposition using the California LCFS pricing as a barometer. Here, you saw pricing at the sort of peak COVID uncertainty, March, April timeframe, you saw, that was real demand destruction. That that was, you know, cars off the road that was, you know, lockdown orders. That was that was real. And you saw it reflected in the supply and demand, you saw that reflected in the LCFS pricing, which went from roughly $200 a ton, which fell to maybe $170 a ton, but then, notably, rebounded by summer to closer to you know, $190, $200 a tonne, which is where it is again today. So I think that’s a really strong validation of what we believe to be true that the low carbon fuel standard market in California is undersupplied and will continue to be for some time, and those requirements for lower carbon fuels will continue to increase. And I believe that it also validated many of the business models for projects that we’re working on that even in the roughest of times, we can see we did not model in that demand destruction overnight. We the project prevails, which is also incredibly encouraging. back to your original question about what types of clients specifically, I think the easiest way is to give you a quick cross-section. Right now, I’m advising clients in a strategic consulting capacity.
Again, across the capital structure in a CCS project, I’m advising a very exciting renewable diesel slash carbon capture project that is well known on the tons of folks in the carbon capture world and they’re advancing very quickly with exciting off-take options and strategic partners around that project. We are working with an environmental attribute marketer, excuse me, what they will do is effectively allow for floor pricing contracts for the LCFS exposure, which really doesn’t exist at any attractive price level at the moment for projects with that type of spot market exposure. They’ve got some interesting financial instruments around the LCFS and some backgrounds around environmental attributes that make their product, a unique and welcome one to space. So we’re seeing how that resonates with folks up and down the value chain. And I’m working with traditional private equity investors and infrastructure investors that are saying, look, we understand the value proposition.
Going back to RNG, because it’s an exciting example. There is a lot of project developments and you’re seeing a lot of interest in projects of scale. But we went back to that particular value chain and you know, the appetite from private equity to find developers in an investable target is significant. There’s a lot of competition. And the more of these types of Let’s call newer financial instruments to come out, that can make a party like that more competitive, and make the value proposition, their underwriting more attractive. You know, that’s, that’s going to be pretty compelling, I would think, to folks trying to find their way into this world. At the same time, we continue to speak to more traditional utilities that are less concerned about potential upside in the LCFS than they are, let’s just say, potential downside scenarios. And that creates a whole world of, let’s call it potential project participants that need their interests aligned, and it creates a gap, we often find in what’s considered to be acceptable risk tolerance, without, newer instruments like the one I just mentioned. So the markets evolving, and in real-time, I would welcome discussion with anyone along the value chain that has an interest in developing these types of projects and is open to having a discussion for subject matter experts where we can lend our perspective to help valorize such a project.
Host Raj Daniels 26:43
So speaking of markets evolving, we’ve touched on ethanol, renewable diesel. There’s been a lot of buzz recently, recently around hydrogen, what are your thoughts about hydrogen, some of the opportunities and even some of the challenges out there?
Scott Chabina 26:57
Extremely excited about hydrogen. But, you know I will often joke that it’s a large ball of wax, hydrogen. What do you mean, right? I’ll say you work in finance. Well, so does the cashier at the donut store. If you’re talking about large scale hydrogen projects, for this transportation infrastructure, that’s obviously a major infrastructure project. I think it’s very compelling. And we’re watching it closely. I think there are a number of notable hydrogen projects that are, I wouldn’t say necessarily modular, but smaller scale that does pencil and have a lot of good tailwinds behind them.
I’m also very curious to watch what type of support plays out for those markets, and how renewable energy wind and solar plays for green hydrogen, you’re seeing a lot of very compelling, certainly research, but more than research sort of draft policy and sort of initiatives around those types of initiatives which is pretty cool. So I think that I am very enthusiastic about the prospects of hydrogen. And at the moment, though, for better or worse, it seems to have remained a larger ticket entry fee, because most of the buzz has been around, let’s just call it, at least in my experience, larger-scale infrastructure. But there are plenty of companies and projects out there that you know, more I’m seeing every day that is looking to play in that value chain.
Host Raj Daniels 28:48
I’m going to switch gears here and get to the crux of our conversation. What’s your why? What drives you? What keeps you going in this renewable energy sector?
Scott Chabina 29:08
I think it started with an individual passion and genuine sort of curiosity around renewable energy, then renewable fuels. And I happen to, as I mentioned earlier, receive an assignment, get the opportunity to work on an engagement in renewable fuels that led to my foray into the sector. I would say that I just found myself constantly reading up on things outside the immediate engagement. I bought textbooks on biorefineries, I read white paper lignocellulosic technologies, I was even fortunate to work with a technology developer around lignocellulosic technology, that would be phenolic resins and, you know, I completely nerd it out and pretended I was a chemist in my own brain by just diving into the stuff. Certainly was the only guy without a Ph.D. there in the room most of the time. But I was passionate in the sense that I knew the application of the technology, I knew where the value was given my existing relationship Rolodex and how I saw the world unfolding. And I just wanted to know more about it.
So I kept on reading, and I was lucky that we happen to have him for more work along the way. And that wasn’t, for instance, coal companies that piqued my curiosity or something where I’m not exactly thinking there’s a long, long future for. I think that we’re going to find ourselves on the right side of history, if you will, for lower carbon insert brackets. I just think that that’s the way this economy is heading.
I think that’s the way the world is heading and transportation fuels. Where I started is, is one component of it, but decarbonization is obviously broader than just transportation fuels. Its manufacturing, its energy, it’s everything. So back to your original question, why do I do what I do? I completely geeked out on the passion side. That led me to where I was, but that was sort of pre-family.
Now I have a beautiful wife Logan, and I have a three and a half-year-old son. Two weeks ago, or roughly two weeks ago, but with the Thanksgiving holiday welcomed our second boy, we moved, and we started a new business all within what feels like 30 days, but it also feels like 10 years. So I can tell you that it really drives me is the family.
I think that, again, only speaking for myself, but I would sincerely hope that everyone had an opportunity in the last 12 months to reflect on this of all that’s happening with COVID. With politics with the economy, everything that’s going on, I think there has to be some reflection that was truly important. So for me, I want to be able to show my sons that their father followed his passion, he always curious, because that’s what I tell them. I tell him never to stop learning. And, you know, look, I think it’s more about finding that passion, putting in the work and the focus. And hopefully, that’ll be as good a precedent as I can provide them to do their own and follow their own passions and goals in life. So I think the destination is the same, but the fuel and the fire is a bit mixed now.
Host Raj Daniels 32:56
I love the idea of being driven by curiosity. And obviously, dotting that eye with family behind it. I feel the same way. And you know, you mentioned earlier tailwinds. I feel like this sector the way it’s moving right now, I don’t think it’ll either it’ll ever be able to satiate the curiosity we have around it.
Scott Chabina 33:15
It’s incredible. Some of the stuff that I read about, you know, in, again, some of these, these outside reading materials, you’re seeing what seemed like not science fiction, but what seems so far away from anything that I would ever have the opportunity to cross paths with on a professional basis. It’s not. I had hoped to get involved in the first biorefinery in the US, I had hoped to get involved in, you know, operating renewable natural gas projects. And it’s, it’s exciting, and they’re real. And I believe that as one of if not the only geeky renewable fuels, decarbonization investment bankers, strategic consultants out there, I’ve been very fortunate to have played a very limited role. But I’ve witnessed the evolution of these low carbon markets and programs, the RFS the LCFS firsthand, and I feel that my perspective is, you know, it’s been strong, but it’s defensible. And I believe that these markets are related but distinct, I think the unique value proposition of each market segment and the various type of project opportunities within them, it takes that type of I don’t wanna say specialist I don’t consider myself a specialist.
I consider myself someone with direct transaction experience in these markets, and I joked with you earlier about popularity, waxing, and waning, but I do see real capital coming in. That’s a real marker for me, that it’s not just an interesting headline, something fun to talk about every three or four years. I think that the continued growth of these sectors is been remarkably exciting. But it’s still early. So we talked about California in the LCFS. In my book, the first chapter or two is, of course, the highest and best way at present to monetize low carbon. Renewable natural gas would be the California market.
However, I think that’s just the first two chapters, and what other parties do with renewable natural gas from different types of resources, whether it be wastewater treatment plants or landfills, or once people understand it’s a methane mitigation issue, it becomes far more adaptable and far more exciting. And I think that I don’t claim to have all the answers of where that interest will go and what the value chain will ultimately look like. Except I can say firsthand, it’s expanding every day. Institutional capital providers have understood and watched these types of opportunities come and go for a long time. I think their comfort levels around certain programs, particularly the California LCFS has certainly become far more under writable. And that’s playing an increasing role in these developing segments. So I do think, collectively, we’ll be on the right side of history, I think it’s exciting.
Host Raj Daniels 36:43
The right side of history is exciting. So you started out as an investment banker, transitioned into this renewable energy sector? What are some of the most valuable lessons, you’d say you’ve learned about yourself on your journey?
Scott Chabina 37:00
I am impatient. I’ve been told I’m defensive that is. That is correct. But I can explain! I do believe that those are things I have to pare back with my enthusiasm and passion for the sector. I’ve been in the space for a long time. So explaining different types of value propositions and looking at different types of projects from one another. I’m familiar with that. And it doesn’t take me long to see sort of the marginal difference from one or another and to sort of benchmark it in my head.
What I will tell you is that not everyone sees the world that way. And unfortunately, for me, things move slower than I would like, particularly in a world with a real global pandemic. And, you know, those are realities that I need to address.
So I would say, one lesson I learned is, you know, breathe a little bit. Take a moment, but don’t lose sight of the target. I wouldn’t be, you know, obviously, I’d have to have thick skin or I wouldn’t be coming from restructuring. I certainly wouldn’t be in renewable fuels because we’ve, we’ve taken some hits and we keep on going. But I think it’s it’s really a broader decarbonization story. I’m very excited to see how it’s expanding so quickly and excited for particularly the next few years, how he continued low carbon markets grow.
Host Raj Daniels 38:47
Well, speaking of the next few years, and you kind of mentioned crystal ball earlier, it’s 2030. What is Chabina Energy Partners look like?
Scott Chabina 39:01
I would say in 2030 we would have seen another expansion of the at a minimum, the California LCFS. We will have other states adopting their their their regional programs or state programs. I think that Chabina Energy Partners will continue to develop its perspective. It’s its industry-leading perspective on the front line for low carbon fuels and decarbonization and will continue to add value to its clients in that capacity.
I’ve always said that I’m eager to not say put my money where my mouth is, but eager to have some principle exposure to you know, said crystal ball. So hopefully by that point in time, there will be another arm of Chabina Energy Partners that has basically invested behind such a thesis and with folks that see the world in a similar light or through the same lens. And we’ll be able to not only bank on past precedent of history but direct project experience from an ownership perspective, as well as an advisory perspective.
Host Raj Daniels 40:16
I look forward to seeing that come to fruition and perhaps even Chabina Energy Partners & Sons.
Scott Chabina 40:26
Renewable energy and the passion I have, believe me, I’ve been doing 16 years, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t wish it on someone who doesn’t share the passion. But I think that decarbonization and, and where the low carbon economy is going, really does offer a tremendous amount of opportunity. So I’d love to see them find their way through such a value chain. But happy and healthy is most important.
Host Raj Daniels 40:52
I agree. Scott, last question. And you’ve kind of given some advice earlier regarding following your passion. But if you could share some advice, or words of wisdom with the audience, it could be professional or personal, or would it be?
Scott Chabina 41:10
I’ll take those first two bullets on, please try to stay patient and don’t be defensive, take criticism. I’ve given myself that advice simultaneously. I think that the most valuable lesson I learned, again, came through not only launching a business but having a child and buying a home and moving and dealing with all this simultaneously in a very struggling economic environment and pandemic. And we’ve all had to face challenges environment.
I’m not looking for sympathy, I’m just telling you that I wouldn’t have been able personally to handle or juggle all of that, without an incredibly strong support system. My family, but most principally, my wife. She’s very successful on her own right, career-wise, and continues to work now keeping her business going. It’s impressive and critical to why I would say, you need to recognize the support around you. It’s difficult to take the blinders off every once in a while.
It’s important to recognize that you really can’t do everything on your own. I am very humbled and excited and privileged to have someone like that in my life that makes launching this endeavor, somewhat less threatening, at least, emotionally. I think that without her buying without her support, I wouldn’t be where we are today.
Host Raj Daniels 43:06
So if I were to tease out some advice from that, it sounds like a couple of things to me sounds like number one, find a good support system, it takes a village. And second is and I’ve heard it said different ways, but the person you marry will be the most, if not the most, pretty close to the most important decision you ever make.
Scott Chabina 43:26
Of course, far better than right. Yes, that is exactly right. She’s a business partner on everything. And I would tell you, you need to have the support and perspective from trusted people in your life to make the right decisions, and making decisions unilaterally is a tough way to go forward.
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