#160 Zecca Lehn, General Partner of Responsibly Ventures

Zecca Lehn is the General Partner of Responsibly Ventures, based in California, backing U.S. PreSeed startups in both Social and Sustainable Tech — using multiple UN Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs) as a guidepost per investment.

Over the past 15+ years, he has worked as an Environmental Economist, Data Scientist, Non-Profit Board Member, and Co-Founder. He grew up in an off-the-grid Japanese-style home, on a remote island in the Pacific Northwest. Through his world travels and living in Scandinavia during his early 20’s, he discovered a deep love for people, planet, and diverse cultures.

For the past years, he has produced the podcast posi2ive, on Venture Scale Positive Impacts. He also leads regular community roundtables and interviews on Clubhouse — for posi2ive’s current community base of 4k+ members. He also manages the *VC Impact Capital Community* — an invite only private network of GPs / LPs / Angels / Family Offices focused on positive impacts.

He holds a degree in Environmental Economics from Western Washington University, and a Certified Specialization in Data Science from Johns Hopkins University. Additionally, he’s certified under the UN Global Reporting Initiative (GRI). He often speaks on panels, podcasts, and publishes articles on the PreSeed VC impact arena.

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Bigger Than Us #160

This transcript has been lightly edited.

Host Raj Daniels 00:23

So Zecca. I want to start with what might sound like a strange place to start. But I’m just curious. What does an environmental economist do?

Zecca Lehn 02:15

That’s a great question. It’s funny that you’d ask that. I got that question a lot when I graduated with a blended degree in environmental economics. And I worked as an environmental economist some 15 years ago in the renewable energy and alternative energy space. And I would tell people, often I’m an environmental economist, and they immediately the brain started melting down. At that time, at least people thought, “How does the environment in the economy go together?” There’s a mismatch. But actually, I found through that experience, that it’s a very useful tool for making sophisticated policies or interacting with the public to analyze renewable energy projects and take into account the multipliers associated with key stakeholders. And that was really part of the work that I did as an environmental economist way back when.

Host Raj Daniels 03:13

So I’m guessing way back when it wasn’t a very popular class or major to take. What moved you to major as an environmental economist?

Zecca Lehn 03:25

great question. I will say that it was an accident, I was thinking I wanted to study environmental journalism. I had a passion for investing and sustainability. But I didn’t quite add it up that getting more toward business and finance and economics was the sensible approach. I thought in the long term, I want to put my money toward sustainability and things like this, but I want to do my work as a writer and an environmental journalist. And, in fact, this is pretty funny. I had to take microeconomics as a requirement in this program to get into the environmental journalism school, which was at the state school in Western Washington University up in the state of Washington. They had the environmental school of Huxley, which has a pretty rich history as a very robust environmental science and environmental studies college at this state school. And to do so I had to take this environmental microeconomics course. Well, it turned out that I was way in over my head. And I didn’t really have a lot of passion for the topic. It was quite confusing to me because I didn’t have a strong background in mathematics and calculus and things like this. One day, I’m sitting in class — I’ve told this before. I love telling this. I don’t want to break into politics. But I will say that I was sitting in class and I read this chart of the top 10 policies that economists agreed with, and at the top was this one called the negative income tax. And the majority of economists that were polled in this textbook said that by a large margin that this was the most sensible policy to enact in the macroeconomic sense. And it said next to it, “Milton Friedman.” And I thought, well, this is interesting. I know nothing about what that means. And I know nothing about who this person is. So I went to the professor. And I said, “Just curious, you know, this really stood out to me as one of the strongest policy measures that most economists agree on. 85% or something like that.” And he says, “Oh, my gosh, you have to check out the work of Milton Friedman.” And so I spent a couple months learning about this negative income tax, which is now known very broadly and somewhat related as universal basic income. Milton Friedman and his wife, Rose Friedman, I believe is her name, back in the 1950s, 1960s, developed this concept of the negative income tax. It’s effectively a tax credit for people in the lowest income brackets to stabilize the economy and lead toward more consumption, which feeds back into the economy. But it also creates a bit of a social safety net when replacing things like social security and other subsidy mechanisms in an ideal world. And so it led me into this pursuit of, “What is economics?” And from there, I decided to switch majors into environmental economics. And you get things like the study of negative externalities, inefficient markets, monopolies, energy economics, natural resource economics, and other types of fields that tie into policymaking and analyses that consultants do in environmental economics, in the work I was doing after college.

Host Raj Daniels 06:57

So in your reading, have you come across a book called Small is Beautiful?

Zecca Lehn 07:02

I have not, I’m gonna read that.

Host Raj Daniels 07:05

It’s a phenomenal book, I’m working my way through it. It’s called Small is Beautiful by E. F. Schumacher. And on the front cover — I have on my desk right here — it says, “economics as if people mattered.”

Zecca Lehn 07:16

Wonderful.

Host Raj Daniels 07:17

Highly recommend the reading. But while we’re on the topic, and I promise I’m gonna get to investing, but I’m just very curious. I listened to you on another podcast that you did, and you used the term. Used the term anthropocentrism. Yes. Can you share what that is?

Zecca Lehn 07:32

Oh, I love it. I love that. Okay. It’s a philosophical concept that I learned in an environmental science course from a professor who wrote this textbook on environmental science. I wish I recalled the gentleman’s name. And I know that he didn’t originate the idea. It was there in the textbook at the time. And it really triggered me to think about my own frame of reference in regard to society, and also the environment. It’s to say that individuals tend to associate value to things that are related to our own self-interest, or related to a mirror image of ourselves. And take, for example, the protection of endangered species. This is not my idea. These aren’t my ideas. A lot of this is a little bit parroted and whatnot. I can’t give you the references, too. It was a long time ago. But basically, things like seal pups, that look very human, like babies, at times tend to get more attention in the media. And people tend to fund nonprofits that protect dolphins or seal pups or other things that look like cute human babies. But there’s an overlooked aspect in the environmental protection area, for things like tarantulas, or cockroaches, or endangered crickets that also serve a basic function for the ecosystem. And when you switch your mindset more toward an ecological framework or biological-centric thinking framework, you step outside of this realm of what is normally looked at as anthropocentrism. And you go into these other spheres that are biocentrism. So we show, “Okay, look, we understand the ecosystem service aspect of, let’s say, protecting the sage grouse,” When we look at, for example, windmill developments, wanting to protect the habitat of that. And then from one step further, look in terms of larger picture things. For example, ice ages or ecological risk that is in the form of mitigation projects over a longer period of time. That would be more ecocentrism. So you have these different spheres. I’ve borrowed on that idea of myself to look at impact spheres. And it in large part pays homage to that, looking at communities, individuals, groups, then systems and other things like that. I put a lot of that out on Twitter just for fun. I like to put people into that framework sometimes.

Host Raj Daniels 10:19

Well, actually, that was my next question. What are impact spheres? And can you expand on that?

Zecca Lehn 10:23

Yeah, it’s effectively the same thing. But it’s a little bit more highlighting the social impact aspect. Look at, let’s say, the Sustainable Development Goals, the SDGs, of which I’m a big fan. The integrated aspect of sustainability has these 17, SDG factors. And each of them have a bunch of sub-goals. And take, for example, poverty alleviation or water quality or land use, or health. All of these things are integrated. And when I look at impact myself as an investor, as an informer, as a trained environmental economist, I look at the overlaps, these so-called nexus opportunities and impact spheres is a way to capture that in a very simplistic form that also encompasses the social impact aspect.

Host Raj Daniels 11:17

You know, it reminds me of Muir, about everything being interconnected.

Zecca Lehn 11:21

Yes, yes, indeed. And I just want to highlight that I think that sometimes in the pursuit of industry, there are times when it’s easier to lean into something we know. And complexity is sometimes something that is sort of simplified in terms of how we snap to something. But I think integrated impact is the direction we should be moving. Some people feel that it gets muted. And that it’s better to focus on core aspects, let’s say on climate change, for example, or on water quality, or on diversity. These aspects are hugely important, but I think you can have everything together. That’s at least my hope. And that’s the aim of my career, in fact.

Host Raj Daniels 12:11

If I’m hearing you correctly, I think that’s one of the problems or one of the reasons that we have some of these problems that we’re experiencing right now. Because there’s been a lot of what I would call “silo thinking” and not paying attention to perhaps the externalities of some of the actions been taken over the last 40 years by business.

Zecca Lehn 12:28

Yes, yeah, the externalities aspect. It’s important to note that externalities can and are mitigated in most circumstances through time or through a combination of net negative, net positive impacts. One thing I tried to steer toward is trying to improve the net positive impacts. And I always try to tell people that impact is an incremental process in itself. And that to lean into it, it takes a collaboration. It takes, not to get too hand-wavy, but I think this multi-stakeholder approach is useful, especially when you have a multidisciplinary, multicultural aspect of integration. It just goes back to collaboration, in my opinion.

Host Raj Daniels 13:27

I agree. And speaking of positive impact, can you give an overview of Responsibly VC and your role at the organization?

Zecca Lehn 13:36

Oh, that’s, that’s wonderful. Okay, so Responsibly Ventures, is based on the idea that we can break shit responsibly. Hopefully, you don’t mind if I swear once on your show? It plays into the idea that venture capital is a very aggressive sport. And the reason that venture capital is aggressive venture capital is a high-risk, high-return opportunity set. And it probably will always be that way. I just want to go back in time to the 1500s, when there were merchants that would go on vessels to other countries. They would finance their voyages in venturing. And there would be investors who would finance the trip, paying for food and materials and the maintenance of the ships. But then they would share in the rewards of the spoils. They would bring resources back and such. That idea that there may be no spoils at the end of the journey was always prevalent. So you could look at that as sort of your risk element. A certain percentage of trips would never return a profit, so to speak. But when they did, they could capture it through that mechanism of venture Later, you know, aimed angel investing, a similar idea, was based, to my understanding, on Broadway musicals and plays. I can’t remember the time, but I’ll say 100 plus years, 100 to 150 years ago, individuals, would be sponsors to the talent and to these plays, and similarly would be venturing like this. We’ve seen that same form of capitalism through, I don’t know, a few 100 years, at least. There’s a really good book actually highly recommend called Americana. It’s kind of on the history of capitalism. It’s an excellent read, it takes forever to read. It’s very intense, but very good. I’m also reading another really good book right now called Debt, which goes into the psychology and the origins of money and credit and printing. And it’s a fantastic read as well. So I want to point you to that. But anyway, long story short, Responsively Ventures is a pre-seed VC impact fund focused on sustainability and social good. So we have this integrated aspect of what we do. Each deal, we want to see this sort of nexus opportunity that can sometimes be complicated on the surface, but I think drives a tremendous amount of value in the long run.

Host Raj Daniels 16:17

And what kinds of companies or technologies have you invested in?

Zecca Lehn 16:21

Oh, that’s a really great question. I actually have an answer to this one. We just backed our first startup, and I’m so proud of the team and what they’re building. It’s Peep, their name is Peep. And they’re based out of the Midwest. I want to give a hat tip to Val and Zerryn, they’re just great founders, first-time founders. What they’re doing is they’re stimulating microeconomies to support small businesses in a way that helps connect them with people who live in the communities. And I think it’s going to be a tremendous success. They just got into Techstars. I’m so excited about them. So I wanted to give it to them. We’re just raising our fund, just getting launched with that under the 506c designation, in May, in fact. So we’re actively raising this $10 million fund, I don’t want to promote my pitching here, but I’m really excited about it.

Host Raj Daniels 17:18

How are they stimulating microeconomies?

Zecca Lehn 17:20

Well, they’re just getting started. And I can’t give you a whole lot of details about it. But it’s a way to connect people who want to support local businesses in a very unique way I can put it as far as that. I just get so excited about it. There are a lot of organizations that have done things like this in the nonprofit space. Even companies like Yelp, to some degree, have done things like this. I would say what makes them unique is their passion for creating a social and community experience out of shared purpose in the businesses you should support locally. And I did quite a bit of research about why I think there’s a pent-up demand for this. I put an article together kind of why we invested in them. A couple things, that Gen Z really cares about this issue. They really, truly want to support local businesses going off of the pandemic and based on multiple polls. And also, there’s an economic driver aspect, which is really fascinating, that local businesses put 70% of the capital that is spent back into the local economy whereas only 25% or 30% gets put back into a local community through national corporate chains on the retail side. So there’s there’s a real driver there. One thing going out of the pandemic: I think the timing is great for this. But secondly, again, back to sort of the economic aspect of impact here. I think that’s what they’re really addressing.

Host Raj Daniels 19:01

Now, I could be, you know, underestimating the power of this company, Peep, but on its surface, just the way you explained it, it doesn’t quite sound like a venture deal.

Zecca Lehn 19:12

I guess the question is, what is a venture deal? So a venture deal is one that has a big market. A venture deal is one that is geared toward high growth. And so for our fund, we’re targeting returns that are extraordinary. And one thing that sense that sets us apart as an impact fund with an indirect and direct component is that the companies that we want to invest in are ones that have a unique competitive advantage to their impact focus. With that, it is aiming to drive higher than normal venture return. So I call this an impact mode. Firstly, I believe that this company can be that. We’ll never know. Just to note, about 70% of pre-seed deals do fail on, on average. We’re trying to target a 50% failure rate, which seems like, “What why would you target a failure rate?” Part of that is, I believe that impact focus will mitigate risk on this level. And so I’m very confident about that. But again, it has to look like something that is geared toward venture capital. I can’t give you the details, of course, but you know, Techstars also is excited about them. That’s a good signal. Yeah, it always goes back to the main aspects of venture. The total addressable market, you want that to be quite large. Let’s say 5 billion plus. You want there to be low competitive friction. You want there to be kind of clearer paths to exits because of the aspect of venture capital that is constrained. In our case, we have a bit longer of a fund to work with. But most VC funds have, say, 10 years. We have 14 years under that. So all those things are very important. And I appreciate you bringing it up, because it’s something I think about every single deal I review.

Host Raj Daniels 21:23

You know, it’s interesting, you said impact as a differentiator. I’ve recently been speaking with the local chamber here. They’re planning to have a sustainability event here in October. And I wrote an article about a month or two ago regarding ESG debt. And one of the things that came out so conceptually — if my research serves me, right, I think you have a background in data science, is that correct?

Zecca Lehn 21:47

Yes, I was a data scientist.

Host Raj Daniels 21:49

So then you’ll understand when I explained this. I had my own tech startup. And you know, over time, you accrue technical debt.

Zecca Lehn 21:55

Technical debt, I’m very familiar with this one for sure.

Host Raj Daniels 21:58

Right, which eventually have to go back and refactor, recode, as the platform grows, as you have more users, etc.

Zecca Lehn 22:03

I have never had to do that.

Host Raj Daniels 22:08

The exception, right, there’s only one. And, you know, there’s the other kind of debt, which is organizational debt. What that means is, you know, when you’re first starting at your company, you hire everyone you can, you just need to get things going. And then eventually, you go back in and you perhaps realign the organization, and start implementing hierarchies and management reporting systems.

Zecca Lehn 22:29

Hopefully sooner rather than later.

Host Raj Daniels 22:31

Absolutely. And, you know, this is something that startups obviously go through. And my hypothesis is that companies that are starting out today, or are young, should start looking at their supply chains, their vendors, their assets through an ESG lens, in order to not accrue ESG debt. And what I mean by that is that five years from now, if there are issues around stranded assets, or insurance companies not insuring, lenders not lending, perhaps, you know, unfair practices in supply chain. I think these companies are going to be highlighted going forward, and they can use as you said, impact, or perhaps ESG, as a competitive advantage and as a differentiator.

Zecca Lehn 23:14

Yeah, I don’t use the term ESG for the types of companies that we invest in. I frame it slightly differently. I say, “This SDG overlap or this nexus overlap across multiple core ESG-like factors is important.” I agree with you in terms of this ESG debt aspect. I framed it similarly in saying that early on, you’re looking at companies that have taken into consideration a more complex set of factors: diversity, training, equity and inclusion, social impact, key stakeholder engagement, or governance components that are critical to keeping the business honest, and as impartial as possible. These classical ESG aspects. In the way I frame it, given that we’re very early, there’s very little incentive to spend a lot of time investing in things, especially in venture, to spend a tremendous amount of time overthinking and overdoing the process of stakeholder analyses and theories of change and reporting to B-corp status plus, plus plus. In my opinion, it’s very unimportant to focus on those things early on, but rather, to have a mindset that’s geared toward an understanding of those complexities, and then leveling up as you go, perhaps, if it’s strategic on a competitive basis, but also on a revenue growth basis that venture requires. I use this example quite frequently, because I think it speaks well to this issue. You take a benefit corporation status. It could be strategic in some situations, especially for companies that are less sensitive about the venture capital constraints. However, there are takeaways from that process that help companies to reduce this ESG potential risk. But if it steers away from the competitive aspect, the scale aspect, and ultimately, the revenue aspect, which is needed to pass through the later rounds, and get to where the high venture return possibility or probability, then I tend to tell founders, “Don’t concern yourself with ESG risk or everything else.” Rather, yes, you’re already serving these aspects of multi-impact. And you have that mindset, you just really want to steer toward, product-market fit, traction, things like that. That’s kind of the general feedback I give, which isn’t necessarily to be taken as, you know, strong advice. It’s mostly loose advice. But yes, I totally appreciate what you’re saying, in terms of when they do get the scale, you don’t want this company that just wants to tack on everything good after they’ve been doing everything poorly. And that’s exactly the business I’m in, I have to say. And I think it’s wonderful you brought that to light.

Host Raj Daniels 26:46

Thank you so much. So, you know, what’s your why? What drove you to turn to becoming an impact investor? And then ultimately, opening your own fund?

Zecca Lehn 26:57

That’s a good question. I think my why primarily is driven around my experience and in living in foreign countries, in traveling extensively, in growing up in a very ecologically sensitive place. I sort of got the inclination very early on in my life that I wanted to do something good for society, good for ecology. And that is just been my driver through my whole career and my whole life. And I have probably have to say, I have to blame my parents for that. They’re both very kind, loving, wonderful. My father passed, but they’ve always educated me to be quite open about the need for good science and also just the care of caring for people and planet.

Host Raj Daniels 27:53

Where did you grow up?

Zecca Lehn 27:54

I actually grew up on a small island up in the Northwest. My family was from there. And my, my father was a bit of an inventor-architect person. We actually grew up in this off-the-grid home in the middle of the forest, of all places. Solar power, DC powered. I love telling this story. It’s always quite fun. Just being very aware of the environment was always an important lesson growing up. And I have to, again, thank my parents for that.

Host Raj Daniels 28:26

Well, it sounds like the apple didn’t fall too far from the tree.

Zecca Lehn 28:29

It did not. It’s impossible, to be candid. When you get an early lesson, I believe, it’s so important.

Host Raj Daniels 28:38

So being an impact investor. Last — if my math serves me right, looking at LinkedIn here — four or five years. And now with your own fund. What are some of the most valuable lessons you’ve learned about yourself on your journey?

Zecca Lehn 28:52

Firstly, I want to say that I’ve been focused on impact and sustainable investing for at least 15, 20 years. I haven’t held myself out as such until more recently, the last few years as an angel investor. I have to say one thing I have learned in the last few years in particular is how important it is to stay open to the learnings that founders can teach. Being very candid, I have never raised venture capital in scaling a tech startup. So I’m very hesitant of being someone to give direct advice or very strong advice. Usually I mitigate it through lots of measures. And the one thing I’ve learned is that that’s actually a strength. Oftentimes, in VC, there’s this narrative to say that those who have not been in the trenches as founders have a particular weakness. And there’s some truth to that, but there’s also an additional strength that goes into someone that is willing to be open and help and stay committed to the needs of the founders. That’s one thing for me that’s really personal. My father was an entrepreneur. I grew up seeing all those struggles, and I have deep compassion for what founders go through or what I perceive them to go through. And I think that one thing about being an angel investor, or VC investor, or someone that’s dealing with startup founders that are going through a lot of ups and downs, is remaining open and trying to ask questions that are helpful, but also inquisitive and non-judgmental. And I think that was a big unlock for me personally, that that’s actually a strength.

Host Raj Daniels 30:35

How do you remain non-judgemental?

Zecca Lehn 30:39

Good question. I don’t think there’s a clear recipe for that. For me personally, it goes back to trying to maintain a sense of compassion and care for individuals, and looking at my own biases, and constantly keeping those in check. Because one thing I think is constant is that people have biases, myself included. We all have biases. But when I’m in a position where I’m there to support, it’s my duty to have more attention on what could be my biases. Frankly, my opinions can push people to make life decisions, and that can negatively impact them or possibly positively impact them. But I take the precautionary principle. If I think something would negatively impact someone, I try to check my biases right there. That’s it’s the precautionary principle aspect.

Host Raj Daniels 31:40

It’s very interesting. And I just can’t imagine how complicated that would become, especially if you have a substantial investment riding on the line.

Zecca Lehn 31:50

Yeah, conflicts of interest are very important. I mean, we could go on for a whole show about this. I’d love to actually, I think it’s important.

Host Raj Daniels 31:58

I agree. Go right ahead.

Zecca Lehn 32:00

Well, one thing I steal from the CFA’s book of ethics, which has helped me tremendously, in the curriculum around this Chartered Financial Analyst program, you treat information as both non-material or material and public and non-public. And you partition information using that system under the way that those people are trained. I’ve, again, borrowed on that system. And one way you can look at it is acting. If there’s an aspect that is, let’s say, material, and nonpublic, then the precautionary principle is one where you would assert that your interest is to put secondarily. To put it into the way I understand it. If there’s a situation where I think I’m conflicted, I’ll say to the founder, “Look, I’m not sure if I’m conflicted, and I can’t tell you why I think I am. But let’s just make you aware that I think I am. So maybe you want to filter yourself.” And when that happens, it gives us the opportunity to make the choice. They can discuss things and it goes down to their level of trust and my reputation and things like that. I can tell you on a daily basis, I probably have a few of these where there’s some type of conflict. I just don’t engage in things that are shortcuts for my long-term success and their long-term success. And I think that’s the key part of ethical business, which I think is very important. To be able to keep your sort of person in check. And there’s actually another interesting thing I like to use often in this discussion that I also gleaned from the CFA ethics book. That’s called the fraud triangle. Are you aware of that?

Host Raj Daniels 33:58

I’m not.

Zecca Lehn 33:59

Okay, the fraud triangle is the overlap between opportunity, threat, and rationalization. And the basis of fraud, or let’s say unethical business, is usually where there’s a conflict internally for an individual. You see an opportunity and its potential for you to grab an edge. And you’re thinking in short term. I could use the example of being someone that works at a bank. Okay. So you work in a bank. The opportunity is that you’re surrounded by money everywhere. Might as well steal the money in the bank. The threat is that at home, you have a sick child, and you need to pay the bills and you’re desperate. The rationalization is that, “Oh, all bankers are evil, and it’s only rich people who put their money at banks anyway, so I’ll just steal a little bit.” That’s the fraud triangle.

Host Raj Daniels 34:56

That is very interesting and something to think about a lot. The rationale piece is a very, very interesting piece to me.

Zecca Lehn 35:02

Yes, yeah. And I’m not perfect. You know, we’re all learning as we go here. I just try to encourage just ethical business and especially in venture capital. It’s such a relationship business. It’s very important. It’s a mental model.

Host Raj Daniels 35:15

Yep, absolutely. So let’s move into the future. Let’s move a decade ahead. It’s 2030. Where would you like to see? What’s your vision for responsibly VC?

Zecca Lehn 35:26

Well, I’ll be very clear. This one I’m quite open about. The vision of Responsibly is that positive impact is the future of venture capital. And positive impact is unique to every single company. And I want to encourage companies to find their sets of positive impacts, plural, and I want to support them in driving toward these social, economic, and environmental positive impacts. And I want to support venture capital as a vehicle to be able to scale that. I have this podcast been doing this the last couple years, a Clubhouse club, etc. And it’s all centered around this tagline, which I ideated on and came to, which is “venture scale positive impact.” And they don’t need to be mutually exclusive. They can be additive toward this better future.

Host Raj Daniels 36:26

And for the audience, please share the name of your podcast.

Zecca Lehn 36:29

It’s Posi2ive, it’s the word positive. But then the number two in the middle, i2i.

Host Raj Daniels 36:35

I love that. So I’ve learned a lot from you already.

Zecca Lehn 36:38

Oh, you’re so nice.

Host Raj Daniels 36:40

You gave me a lot to think about. But my last question, and you’ve already sprinkled the conversation with quite a bit of advice. But my last question is, and it could be professional or personal. If you could share some advice or words of wisdom with the audience, what would it be?

Zecca Lehn 36:53

Well, I mean, it may seem perfectly obvious and non-interesting. But I would just say doing the right thing is usually not that hard to really figure out if you’re asking yourself the right questions. If the right thing is in front of you, and it takes a little bit more effort, I’d say it’s probably worth doing. So I always just try to encourage people to find their right thing and kind of lean into that. And it’s worth it. That’s kind of like the positive encouragement I’d like to give.

Host Raj Daniels 37:28

A little bit of a hat tip to Spike Lee, I believe. Do the right thing.

Zecca Lehn 37:32

Oh, yeah, exactly. Great film, by the way. Was definitely a film worth rewatching.

Host Raj Daniels 37:37

It absolutely is. It’s been a pleasure speaking with you, and I look forward to catching up with you again soon.

Zecca Lehn 37:42

Looking forward to it. Thank you again, Raj.

Before we go, I’m excited to share that we’ve launched the Bigger Than Us comic strip, The Adventures of Mira and Nexi.

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